Summary
MSNBC`s continuing live coverage of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The new sanctions President Biden announced today target Russia`s largest banks, cutting them off from the U.S. financial system and restrict U.S. investors from dealing with Russian banks and companies critical to the Russian economy. Putin`s direct assault on factuality might be called implausible deniability. By denying what everyone knew, Putin was creating unifying fictions at home at dilemmas in European and American newsrooms.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Rachel.
It was exactly 24 hours ago that we got the word during this program, during the first few minutes of this program that, yes, in fact, the invasion had begun. And, of course, as you know, the United Nations Security Council was meeting at that time.
And the meeting began before the invasion, but then while they were speaking, it actually was occurring. And that`s when we got that extraordinary statement by the Ukrainian ambassador of the United Nations last night. Just, really letting the Russian ambassador have it on the most -- just throw away his prepared remarks because the invasion has started in the minutes before he spoke.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, "TRMS": I will tell you, Lawrence, I wasn`t on there last night, I was watching our coverage and watching that U.N. Security Council exchange happen, live on your air. At started off watching that, sitting on my couch, and by the end of it, I was standing in front of my television unable to look away. Just absolutely stunned by what we were seeing unfolding at that time.
The shocks of the invasion happens, and also the presence of mind and the composure of that ambassador to do what he did in real time, in that moment as the world was learning what Russia was doing. It`s just, it was terrible, but I will Shakespearean, it was incredible stuff.
O`DONNELL: And, given the time difference, and the time in Ukraine, from this hour forward is when we can start to get a new set of developments, possibly, as the night wears on. So we will be watching all of it life.
MADDOW: Indeed. Thanks, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.
The breaking news we have right now, we`re monitoring right now, is that there are new Russian military movements and Ukraine. It`s just after 4:00 a.m., this is when they made their first moves last night. The city of Konotop in the region of Sumy which is about 220 miles from Kyiv, is under siege by Russian forces according to a local official. Those Russian forces are headed in the direction of Kyiv. We will bring you the latest reporting on that as we get that.
Let`s go now to NBC News correspondent Erin McLaughlin in Kyiv.
Erin, it was exactly 24 hours ago when we first spoke about the situation there. What has changed in those 24 hours?
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Lawrence. We were just hearing, and about 40 minutes ago, there was a large explosion here in Kyiv. In fact, and perhaps among the largest we have heard so far.
We are hearing from an adviser to the interior ministry of Ukraine saying, ballistic missiles have been fired at the Capitol. Ukrainian officials are saying that they managed intercept the ballistic missile. Video show what looks like an explosion over the city. Pictures are emerging here of a building that appears to be hit about 20 minutes from where I`m standing now.
This latest explosion was preceded in the small hours of the morning by two, smaller booms that we heard further in the distance. These are, really, the first three explosions we heard today. Yesterday, it was explosion after explosion here in the capital, as well as the sounds of sirens telling people to get to shelter.
Right now, as I look out over the capital, it is extraordinarily calm, not a single person in the streets. There is a curfew that expires at 7:00 a.m.
We heard from President Zelenskyy saying that he is remaining here in Kyiv. He has sent his family, though, to an undisclosed location. He is urging everyone to remain calm -- Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Erin, this is one thing started 24 hours ago. Do Ukrainian officials believe that there will be a similar rhythm today, or this morning in Ukraine, as there was yesterday morning in terms of the action?
MCLAUGHLIN: You know, at this point, Lawrence, we just do not know. It seems certainly possible. You hear the rumors here. The rumors proceeding today, I heard that 3:00 a.m. was the time with which they expected to see some sort of activities and explosions.
[22:05:05]
We are the first explosion an hour later, at four in the morning. Would this day holds, we simply do not know. What we do know is that the Russians have crossed the border over from Belarus and to Ukrainian territory. There was fierce fighting on the ground yesterday at the Chernobyl area, with the reports that the Russian military has seized the Chernobyl nuclear reactor.
We are hearing of reports of another besieged city about two hours from where I am now, and the Russian forces are making their way to Kyiv. So it certainly seems like this invasion is nowhere near slowing down, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Erin McLaughlin, your reporting continues to be invaluable with us, please stay safe, we will come back to you as the situation develops. Thank you very much.
At the end of the first day Vladimir Putin`s invasion of Ukraine, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy bore the tolerable duty, that presidential duty of announcing Ukraine`s casualties in what is now a war with Russia, 137 Ukrainian soldiers killed, and 316 Ukrainians injured so far.
The most important numbers reported and Russia, today, where the massive numbers of protesters who turned out all over the country to protest of Vladimir Putin`s invasion of Ukraine. That is something that no Russian leader of the Soviet Union had to deal with when Russian tanks rolled into neighboring countries during the Soviet era. That dictatorship was even more severe and crushing that Vladimir Putin`s dictatorship. Protests were not allowed, and did not occur.
So there were no Russians rising up in protest, but today, Russian authorities had to report 1,400 -- 1,745 arrests of protesters and 64 cities and Russia. And those Russian authorities have every incentive to lie about those numbers. They have every incentive to minimize those protest numbers, and those arrests numbers. But today, Russian authorities were force to admit to at least 1,745 arrests.
The pictures of the thousands of Russian protesters today are the most inspiring images we can deliver to you tonight. Think of their bravery, going out to protest against the dictator`s invasion of a peaceful neighbor after Russians were warned that any form of protest would be crushed. That warning meant something much worse than just arrests could happen to them.
And still, they marched. They marched against Vladimir Putin`s invasion. In St. Petersburg alone, there were at least 1,000 protesters, most of them are younger than Vladimir Putin. Most of them will outlive Vladimir Putin`s dictatorship. And most of those protesters will, no doubt, live to hear a future Russian leader condemn Vladimir Putin the same way that Vladimir Putin condemned previous Russian leaders during his deranged speech earlier this week, justifying his invasion of Ukraine.
In a video released two hours ago, President Zelensky said that he and his family believes, are on Vladimir Putin`s target list. He said, quote: According to the available intelligence, they marked me asked tiger number one, and my family`s target number two. They want to destroy Ukraine politically by destroying the head of state.
Russian special forces and airborne troops seized control of the Chernobyl nuclear site, after reportedly fierce fighting, and were pushing into the outskirts of the capital city of Kyiv, where President Zelenskyy said, he is still remaining.
Today, Secretary of State Anthony Blinken said that all evidence suggests that Russia intends to encircle and threaten Kyiv.
The chairman of the intelligence committee, Mark Warner, said he believes that Russian troops are preparing to go into Kyiv immediately. Today, President Biden announced new, even stronger sanctions against Russian targeting the banks, the tech sector, and Russian billionaires.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, I`m authorizing the strong sanctions and new limitations on what can be exported to Russia. This is going to impose severe coast on the Russian economy, both immediately, and overtime. We have purposely designed these sanctions to minimize the long term impact on Russia, and to minimize the impact on the United States on our allies. It will be a major hit to Putin `s long-term strategic ambitions.
[22:10:03]
And we are preparing to do more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And we have breaking news, at this hour on another issue. A source familiar with the matter, NBC News is reporting that a source familiar with this matter confirms that President Biden has decided on how Supreme Court nominee. The source said, an announcement could come as soon as tomorrow.
Joining our discussion now is Ben Rhodes who served as deputy national security adviser to Barack Obama. He is an MSNBC political analyst.
And then I want to pick up on this breaking news that seems irrelevant to the Ukraine situation. But, it is the picture of the American presidency. Here is the president going from phone calls with President Zelenskyy, shoring up and uniting the NATO countries, deciding on the details of the next package of sanctions, and switching over when necessary to look over those Supreme Court quart files and decides, and choose, today, choose in all of this, his next Supreme Court justice.
BEN RHODES, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah, you know, Lawrence, having spent eight years in the White House, one of the most difficult things, probably the most difficult things about the presidency is, he`s not just working on the issues that we are thinking and talking about. He has to think and work on everything. And so, at the same time that he is clearly engaged in a lot of time commitments around this Russia, Ukraine, crisis, talking to foreign leaders, meeting with his national security team, getting intelligence briefings, he`s also doing incredibly consequential things, like selecting the Supreme Court justice, he`s preparing to give a State of the Union Address next week.
And this is why this job is so difficult, because you have to multitask to the extreme. I was in plenty of situations and meetings with President Obama and that seemed like the most important matter possible, and you had to walk out of that meeting, I go and to the oval office, and switches brain to think about something of really different.
So, obviously, just as we`re doing with the world, historic crisis in Ukraine, obviously, it`s also going to have decades of consequence as to who he picks for that Supreme Court justice.
O`DONNELL: And, it`s also a note to Vladimir Putin that for the Biden presidency, business as usual is continuing on all of their friends.
RHODES: Yeah, you know, absolutely. I think Putin, if you look at what we`ve experienced here, and will re-seen in terms of his leadership, this is someone who has basically been consumed by his own ideological, and let`s face it, quasi-messianic mission to restore what he believes is Russia`s rightful place in the world, but a version of Russians empire. And you get a sense that that`s all he`s thinking about.
You get the sense that he might not even be that concerned about the enormous consequences to his economy from the sanctions. He is not someone who is governing Russia in the broader sense, he`s someone who is focused completely on this effort in Ukraine, which could significantly backfire at him.
And frankly, Lawrence, I think that`s with the people in the streets understand as well. They don`t like the fact that he has launched this war. They don`t like the fact that they`re going to be Russian casualties. They don`t like the fact that they have a president who is not focused on their issues. When I talk to people I know in Moscow, and Russia, would they say is there`s not support among the Russian people for this effort, and the same way that there was for Crimea, where it was a relatively bloodless effort. It was a part of Ukraine that was majority Russian, their focus on pocketbook issues and Russia.
They don`t know why their president`s focus on this effort in Ukraine? They don`t know why he`s inviting the sanctions. They don`t know why his killing ethnic Russians in Ukraine with his military operations.
The American presidency is very different. The American presidency is dealing with all manner of issues from Supreme Court justice, to the economy, to a variety foreign policy issues. But the fact is, obviously, I`m sure what is consumed the massive majority of the time and the Biden White House and the recent days of weeks has been Ukraine.
O`DONNELL: You know, reading the full translation of Vladimir Putin`s new speech today. Much of it sounded defense of -- this was a speech to the Russian people, justifying, much of it sounded defense. He was the phrase at one point in the translation saying, this may be hard to understand, but, and you went on to one of his hard to understand concepts, including him saying that this is purely Russia in defense. This is just a defense of Russia that he is engaged in pure defense.
[22:15:01]
And then he said this, which also sounds like something he needs to say to keep the protest numbers down. He said, it`s not our plan to occupy the Ukrainian territory, we do not intend to impose anything on anyone by force. Now, of course, he`s imposing things by for us right now.
But that point about, we don`t plan to occupy the Ukrainian territory. Whatever the long term truth of that, or falsity of that turns out to be, he decided that something he has today to the Russian people.
RHODES: Yeah, if you look at what he experienced today, we have protest in the thousands and Moscow and St. Petersburg, where people know that coming out to protest is going to bring potential jail time, harassment, that`s an indication that the opposition is much broader than just those numbers. And Vladimir Putin has to know that.
You`ve also not seen any demonstrations really in support of what Putin is doing. Again, in contrast to Crimea, where there was a support to what Putin was doing, it`s because he was so clearly limited and focus on this piece of territory, the Russians understood well, and a lot of Russians felt like was part of Russia.
Russians know Ukraine. They know how it`s a big country. They know that the Ukrainian people are going to resist. There are cross family ties between Russia and Ukraine. There are Russians who are worried about their families in Ukraine.
The Russians are actually worried about the ethnic Russians that Putin claims to be defending Ukraine, but who are now engraved danger. In addition to just the popular opinion he has to worry about, you saw him convene a meeting of the top oligarchs, basically convening the group of people who were going to have all of their assets targeted now by the sanctions.
Potentially, their children assets targeted. Their property seized, the banks taking huge hits. Gazprom, the Russian oil company, its value falling by half. He convened those people to deliver the same message, that I had to do this.
And let`s face it, for all the propaganda in the world, there are things that people can see through. And it`s just not persuasive, I think, that there is a Nazi regime in Kyiv led by a Jewish Ukrainian president. It`s just not persuasive that Russia itself was threatened by Ukraine. Putin is the one who believes that.
So, he can turn his propaganda machinery into high gear, with the sense you get from Putin`s own body language and his own rhetoric, as well as people on the streets, as well as the body language of those oligarchs in the room, is that this war is not as popular as Putin might have thought it was. He would`ve been off more than he true.
That doesn`t mean he`s going to pull back, he`s clearly committed to the mission he is engaged in. I think he clearly wanted decapitate the Ukrainian government. I think President Zelenskyy is only right, that he is probably on some kind of coolest, along with the leadership of Ukraine civil society and political establishment.
But that doesn`t mean that this is going to be easy for Vladimir Putin. The Ukrainian people are clearly going to resist. If he doesn`t want to occupy the country, the Ukrainian people are not going to tolerate the regime installed by Russia either. And so, he has launched the most ambitious of his endeavors.
Keep in mind that these other military initiatives that he`s taken, pieces of Georgia, Crimea, those two provinces in eastern Ukraine, these were small, geographically isolated areas. He`s not done anything like what he`s trying to do now. And he`s not faced anything like the economic consequences that he`s going to face from this -- he political and diplomatic isolations that he`s going to face from this, the body bags coming back to Russia, the casualties.
In the same way as Alexei Navalny pointed out in his trial, the same way that body bags coming back from Afghanistan alternately turn the Russian people against the Soviet leadership. So he`s a leader who may not be deterred in the near term in terms of what he`s doing in Ukraine. But he is looking at a medium and long term that is far from rosy pictures for him.
O`DONNELL: Ben Rhodes, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight, really appreciative.
RHODES: Thanks, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And up next, we`ll be joined by Alexander Vindman, who was born in Ukraine and rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel of the United States Army, and because of a service, the national security team in the Trump White House, he found themselves testifying against Donald Trump in the first impeachment investigation of Donald Trump was impeached for his attempt to blackmail Ukraine.
Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman joins us, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:22:52]
O`DONNELL: Two years ago, in speech in Jerusalem, Ukraine`s President Zelenskyy who is Jewish said three of his great uncles were murdered by the Nazis in the Holocaust. But his grandfather survived the Holocaust.
President Zelenskyy said: He survived World War II, contributing to the victory over Nazism and hateful ideology. Two years after the war, his son was born and his grandson was born 31 years after.
Forty years later, his ground son became president, and today he stands before you.
Today in the speech that obviously targeted President Zelenskyy. Vladimir Putin said: We will seek to militarize and denazify Ukraine, as well as bring to trial those who perpetrated numerous bloody crimes against civilians, including against citizens of the Russian Federation.
Joining us now is NBC News reporter Matt Bodner in Moscow.
Matt, what was the reaction to the protests around Russia today?
MATT BODNER, NBC NEWS REPORTER: Thank you, Lawrence.
Well, obviously, we saw the Russian government really wasn`t all that accommodating to protesters. They were being warned well before they started gathering. We started hearing warnings earlier in the day, that anyone who takes parts and unsanctioned mass gathering will be arrested. It is I guess the law.
And we had saw people try to get around this a little bit because you are actually allowed under the Russian Constitution to stage a single person picket. Those people were also arrested. We got a very strong signal from the Russian government that they were not going to allow protests to form. They ended up cracking down on these protest, as we have seen in the past.
You know, we were going through central Moscow earlier this evening. About an hour or so before the protests began. We saw security presence that I have not seen in the city since basically one year ago exactly now, when there was massive protests against the arrest of the opposition leader, Alexei Navalny. That gives you an idea I think of how nervous the authorities are about the Russian public and their reaction to this military operation at this point.
[22:25:11]
You were mentioning earlier how this doesn`t seem to be a very popular, action I think. I think most Russians I have talked to today were really quite surprised to see whether president had done when they woke up. When they woke up this morning and saw the speech, which aired before. Most people in Moscow had woken up.
So, this is a interesting new faction in this situation here in Moscow. We`re going to have to see how it plays out now. Russian people don`t seem to be going for it.
One thing I really do want to highlight, just to kind of reinforce how I think nervous the Kremlin is about the public`s reaction is. We are getting the alternate reality depiction of the war from the Russian defense ministry, from the Kremlin. We have seen these bullet points by the defense ministry, insisting that population centers are not being targeted. Russia is using person guiding munitions to just strike military targets.
You saw an interesting one on the Russian state television a few hours ago, the Russian defense minister had ordered the tree Ukrainian soldiers with respect. So they`re trying very, very hard to not depict this as a war, not to depict this as the campaign it appears to be unfolding in Ukraine now, especially as the Russians be running into perhaps more resistance than they had expected.
So, we are going to keep watching the Russian public at this point. They are going to see these videos. They are going to see that for example right now that Kyiv is being attacked by Russian forces. They have been told that population centers were not on the target list.
So, you know, as you were talking about earlier, Russians have families in Ukraine. There are bonds, friends, common culture and language they share. They share same kind of information space.
So, I don`t know how the Russian government is going to be able to hide the reality of this from them.
O`DONNELL: Matt Bodner in Moscow, thank you very much for that report.
Joining us now is retired Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. He served as director for European affairs at the National Security Council during the Trump administration and he testified against Donald Trump in the first impeachment investigation of Donald Trump.
Colonel Vindman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
I want to get your response to something that President Zelenskyy said today. He said as of today, our countries around different sides of world history. Russia has embarked on a path of evil.
LT. COL. ALEXANDER VINDMAN, U.S. ARMY (RET.): You know it`s amazing, I met President Zelenskyy, you talked about the common roots. We actually had an interesting exchange about how the shoe could`ve been on the other foot, he could`ve been overseas. He could`ve ended up being a comedian there, I was joking with him. I could end up being comedian there.
It`s amazing how he has risen to the occasion. He is the man leading this country, started off as an entertainer. Now leaving his country, and he is absolutely right with that assessment.
Russia is going to be joining the category of evil empire`s, of oppressive states, and Ukraine as a very plucky, outperforming expectations country. The largest in Europe, 45 million people, is there on the front lines defending their democracy.
O`DONNELL: When Putin says he`s going after Nazis in Ukraine, he means President Zelenskyy who is Jewish obviously. He`s not a Nazi.
Is that the kind of language that Vladimir Putin believes he can convince Russians makes this worthwhile?
VINDMAN: Certainly, some sort of cognitive dissonance there, because those two data points don`t matchup, but he needed some pretext, some reason to go after the cradle of Slavic civilization, the shared history, dating back 1,000 years between these two peoples, separate nations but a shared history.
And he needed some sort of pretext, under the most powerful pretext he could come up with, he hit the right one, he is a case officer. He knew what would kind of effect of the population most deeply is Nazism. Because of the untold catastrophe of World War II, millions and millions of people died, both my grandfathers died, my mother side and my father side. This is the shared story of many, many people.
So, in describing them as nationalists, folks that supported the Nazis, or as Nazis themselves, he thinks that`s sufficient. But, clearly, the population is not buying it. In spite of the significant risks they are prepared to go on the streets.
[22:29:47]
And the question is, is this the kind of Black Swan event? Everybody believes that Russia has the massive military dominance. It should by all accounts, if you look at the charts, yes.
But maybe there are other factors at play here. Maybe it`s Russia instability, maybe it`s the fighting spirit and the morale of the Ukrainian people that may result to this shaping up in a completely very different direction than Vladimir Putin calculated.
Certainly, that`s really (ph) the case of costs. He`s going to bear some significant economic costs. He`s brought Europe together. He`s brought to the Europe Atlantic alliance together. I think I see the hints of bringing even the American population together which is kindhearted, and can`t stand to watch this kind of suffering imposed on the people fighting for freedom. And this might even move the needle on some of our partnership.
And he hits it all because of Vladimir Putin, and the most catastrophic miscalculation of his entire tenure, 22 years in power. More than 22 years in power.
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Colonel, what is your military assessment of where the situation stands tonight militarily? And I know we are only 24 hours in. So that I would like to just amend the question with when do you think we will have any kind of clarity on where we are militarily?
VINDMAN: It is definitely too early to indicate the direction this is going. But frankly it is not too early to assess the way this is unfolding when the Russians have achieved their day one objectives.
And I would say that the Russians have under performed and the Ukrainians have overperformed. The Russians were supposed to conduct a massive shock and awe campaign, destroy Ukrainian command in control. Destroy Ukrainian bases, air defense, air force. That did not happen.
As a matter fact the Ukrainian air force was flying and there was a rising event of the ghost Kyiv. May 29 pilot that shot down 46 aircraft, which is a pretty amazing feat. That`s an ace right there.
But there were these stories emerging of great heroism on the part of the Russians and on the part of the Ukrainians. And on the Russian side, what`s fascinating is the captured Russian soldiers, including one airborne officer, a captain from an elite unit that said he had no idea he was landing in Ukraine and being forced to attack Ukraine.
Stories about not being fed, not having sufficient water, not receiving any information on what they are supposed to be doing. The morale is quite low.
These are not negligible factors. The fact that the air force is flying their air defenses operation means that they could sustain this fight. The Russians have an overwhelming advantage, they are likely to go low which means they`re going to go after these cities and after morale targets and population centers.
It`s frankly surprising they haven`t done that, of course they can`t do that for their own domestic population. But there is something to be said about the Russian way of war as indicated in Syria where they targeted mosques, hospitals, schools.
I don`t necessarily see when things go bad for them, as they are very early trending, that they don`t go too much more devastating attacks.
O`DONNELL: Lt. Col Alexander Vindman, thank you for your invaluable insights we really appreciate it.
VINDMAN: Thank you for having me on.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And coming up, President Biden had Russia with more sanctions today, including sanctions targeted at billionaires close to Vladimir Putin. Two experts who have administered sanctions issued by the United States will join us next.
[22:33:41]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: The new sanctions President Biden announced today target Russia`s largest banks, cutting them off from the U.S. financial system and restrict U.S. investors from dealing with Russian banks and companies critical to the Russian economy.
The sanctions also freeze all U.S. assets held by Russians with close ties to Vladimir Putin and the families of those people with close ties to Vladimir Putin.
The new sanctions also target Russia`s military capabilities, export controls of key products from the U.S. and its allies to Russia are designed to block Russia`s ability to acquire technology essential to defense, aviation, and other critical sections cutting off half of Russia`s high tech imports.
As the "Washington Post" reports quote, "No country as large as Russia, with an economy large as Russians, ranked 12th, according to the International Monetary Fund, has been hit with such massive international sanctions.
Russia has not yet been removed from Swift, a global financial system. Present Biden said that option is still on the table, as is the possibility of sanctioning Vladimir Putin himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The sanctions that we`ve proposed on all the banks as an equal consequence, may more consequence than Swift, number one. Number two, it is always an option, but right now that is not the position that the rest of Europe wishes to take.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Edward Fishman, who served as a Russia sanction lead at the State Department and Rachel Alpert, former attorney adviser in the State Department`s office of legal advisor.
And Mr. Fishman, let me begin with you. One thing the president said today is that the sanctions that they have imposed -- the financial sanctions that they have imposed are at least as strong as actually blocking Russia from Swift.
EDWARD FISHMAN, FORMER U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT RUSSIA SANCTION LEAD: That`s definitely the case. President Biden today made good on his stance to deliver swift and severe consequences to Russia`s economy.
[22:39:50]
FISHMAN: Lawrence, I was involved in 2014, and today`s sanctions are orders of magnitude stronger than the ones we did back then. The center piece of today`s package was a hammer blow on Russia`s state=owned banks.
Sberbank, as you mentioned, has one third of all Russian banking assets; BTB, 15 percent of Russian banking assets; and together, 60 percent of all households deposits.
By blocking them from the U.S. financial system, the Biden administration is unleashing financial dislocation in Russia. This will be pain that is felt broadly across the Russian economy. It will be pain that is visible to everyone around the world. And it will make clear to everyone around the world that Putin`s unprecedented, you know, invasion of Ukraine, brazen aggression against innocent Ukrainians, comes with a very steep price.
Additionally, the export controls you mentioned are not insignificant either. The multilateralism bringing together allies in Europe and Asia means that Russia`s technology sector is going to become increasingly backward in the decades to come.
So I think the bottom line is, not only are these sanctions going to hit Russia immediately and send the Russian economy into a tailspin, but Russia`s capacity to do harm, Russia`s power is going to be significantly dampened so long as Putin is president because of these unprecedented sanctions today, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Rachel Alpert, when you saw -- when you`ve been studying the package of sanctions two days in a row, two different packages -- what stands out to you as the most powerful tools that the president is using now?
RACHEL ALPERT, FORMER U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT ATTORNEY-ADVISER: Well, the blocking sanctions are among the most powerful and direct hammers that we see the president using, because those have the effect of completely blocking from the U.S. financial system, any of the entities that are subject to those sanctions.
But, what I think is interesting to see is also the nuance that we`ve seen built into these sanctions actions. Leaving both room to increase sanctions in the coming days, and at the same time seeking, to the extent possible, to minimize impact on the rest of the world, on the United States, on our allies.
And, the sanctions today against Sberbank exemplify that because as we see, rather than using blocking sanctions, as the president and the Treasury Department imposed on BEB and BTB -- Sberbank is subject to corresponding banking and debt-related sanctions, but it doesn`t prohibit non financial institutions from continuing to engage with the banks.
So that shows kind of some nuance in how these sanctions are being implemented with room to grow.
O`DONNELL: Edward Fishman, who goes to work enforcing these sanctions?
FISHMAN: Sure. So the sanctions interestingly, you know, they`re enforced by the United States government, right -- treasury Department, the Justice Department. But the thing that`s interesting that people don`t often talk about, Lawrence is that, really, the front line, the pointed edge of the spear in terms of sanctions compliance are actually banks and companies themselves. So what we`re going to see in the coming days are banks, not only in the United States, but in Europe and Asia, all around the world, are going to really interpret the sanctions, they`re going to read over them. they`re going to try to determine what are the risks for instance of continuing to deal with Sberbank and BTB.
Rachel brings up a good point that Sberbank was cut off from corresponding accounts in the United States. It`s slightly less significant sanction than the blocking sanctions imposed on BTB.
What I will be watching for is what are banks risk (INAUDIBLE) is going to be for actually continuing to transact with Sberbank? My instinct, Lawrence is that, you know, there is a clear signal that`s coming from the Biden administration, as well as from the European Union and the United Kingdom, that the Russian economy is going to be completely severed from the global financial system in the weeks ahead.
Unless there is some sort of miracle and Putin pulls back from the brink, I think we`re kind of on a conveyor belt to Iran-style sanctions against Russia.
So, you know, today I imagine this to be sort of the tip of the iceberg. And in the coming days and weeks, we`ll really see how large the rest of that iceberg is.
O`DONNELL: Edward Fishman and Rachel Alpert -- experts on sanctions. We`re going to need your advice as we continue covering this crisis. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
Thank you.
And coming up, for a much needed perspective on what we have seen today. We will be joined by Yale Historian Timothy Snyder who is an expert on Ukraine. That is next.
[22:44:19]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: In his book, "The Road to Un-Freedom: Russia, Europe, America", our next guest Timothy Snyder writes this about Russia`s 2014 invasion of Ukraine`s Crimea region.
"Putin`s direct assault on factuality might be called implausible deniability. By denying what everyone knew, Putin was creating unifying fictions at home at dilemmas in European and American newsrooms.
After implausible deniability, Russia`s second propaganda strategy was the proclamation of innocence. The invasion was to be understood not as a stronger country attacking a weaker neighbor at a moment of extreme vulnerability. But as the righteous rebellion of an oppressed people against a overpowering global conspiracy."
Joining us now is Timothy Snyder, professor of history at Yale University and permanent fellow at the Institute for Human Sciences in Vienna. As we mentioned, he is the author of "The Road to Un-Freedom: Russia, Europe and America".
And Professor Snyder, everything that we just read of your description of 2014, all of that was in Vladimir Putin`s speech today.
[22:49:48]
TIMOTHY SNYDER, AUTHOR AND PROFESSOR, YALE UNIVERSITY: Yes, he is doing exactly the same kinds of things as he did in 2014. He`s trying to put reporters in the west in impossible position, by saying things that are untrue or contradictory or both.
And he`s trying to set up a situation where we are supposed to believe that Russia is the victim or the people of Donbas are the victim even as he is doing something which is just the brashest and the most awfully direct form of aggression one can imagine.
I think though that there`s a difference between now and 2014. My book is largely about how well those tactics worked eight years ago. But I`m not really seeing that this time. It`s the same sort of tricks, with the same kind of content. But journalists have learned a lot in the meantime and politicians have learned a lot as well.
And I am actually struck above all of this time by how poorly the Russians themselves are prepared for this war. The last time around, there was such a drumbeat of organized propaganda, that it was predictable that Russia was going to invade and there would be a kind of euphoria about it.
This time, Russians have been kind of left in the dark. Their leaders told them there wouldn`t not be a war. And then one day -- you know, one day suddenly there was. And I think a lot of Russians are authentically confused and not knowing what to believe, and that is something new in the Putin regime.
O`DONNELL: Well the protesters today are quite striking because as much as Vladimir Putin and the Russian government tries to completely control the flow of information in that country, some other kind of information is getting to those protesters.
SNYDER: Yes, I mean one thing that one really has to say is that there are an awful lot of politically savvy and extremely well-educated Russians. There are an awful lot of Russians who are willing to take risks. There are an awful lot of Russians who care about Ukraine without thinking they should be controlling Ukraine. There are a lot of Russians I`m trying to say, who don`t actually need information to smell that sense that something is very wrong in the story that they are being told, to feel that in their guts, in their bones. And then to take risks.
I mean if you want to think about people who are courageous, of course, we think about Ukrainians who have actually chosen to resist an overwhelming force and that is very significant.
But Russians who are out on the street are also showing exemplary courage. They are following their common sense and a sense of decency.
O`DONNELL: When I read the translation of Vladimir Putin`s speech today, I was getting some elements of defensiveness in it and this is a speech he`s making to the Russian people to justify what he has done including the phrase at one point in the translation saying, "as hard as this might be to understand". And then he goes on from there. Do you think that is a fair reading of that speech?
SNYDER: I do. I do Lawrence. I think, you know, Putin in 2014 was much more tactical and much less ideological. I mean there was an ideology there. He was trying to break up Ukraine and the European Union and the U.S. He was trying to create space for chaos and destabilization of those systems. But the tactical Putin never left the stage.
Whereas now it seems like ideological Putin has the upper hand. And some of his ideas are just -- they are so far gone, you know, the idea that Russia and Ukraine must be one nation because a thousand years ago, a Viking got baptized. That`s a pretty far gone idea.
And the idea that you`re going to de-Nazify your neighbor, who everybody knows has a democratically-elected Jewish president, that you`re going to - - you know, you`re going to de-Nazify that neighbor. These ideas are so far gone.
And he doesn`t seem to be flexible about them. He kind of repeat them over and over again. And so I think they are authentically a little bit hard to understand. And I think people are beginning to scratch their heads a little bit on Russia about exactly what is going on.
O`DONNELL: So Vladimir Putin was challenged today by those protesters. One thing to watch is, will there be more? 1,700 arrests today at least. The question of what that Russian uprising is going to look like in the next few days is very important going forward.
SNYDER: I mean if things change in Russia it will be a combination of people making a turn, and realizing that something has gone very wrong.
Plus elites seeing that their future might not be best alongside Mr. Putin plus demoralization on the front, and you know, one would not want to make any kinds of predictions. But it`s striking that there`s at least been a little -- there has been some element of all three of those things in the first 24 hours already.
[22:54:47]
O`DONNELL: Professor Timothy Snyder, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We always appreciate it.
SNYDER: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And today, while appearing in a Russian court, jailed Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny took time to say this to the judge.
"The war with Ukraine has been unleashed to cover up the robbery of Russian citizens and divert their attention away from the country`s internal problems from the degradation of its economy. This war will lead to a vast number of victims, destroyed lives, and continued impoverishment of Russian people."
Our breaking news coverage of Russia`s invasion of Ukraine continues now with Ali Velshi right after this.
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ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST: Good evening. I`m Ali Velshi.
It is a day 401 of the Biden administration.
As we come on the air it`s now 6 a.m. in Kyiv where there have been reports of more explosions.
NBC News reports that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff told House members today that Russian troops are now 20 miles outside of the capital.
